- Pippa Georgeson This thread is why the left fails to engage with a lot of groups properly. So much infighting and prancing about like peacocks, you make people feel detatched from the class struggle.
- Steve Hedley So what do you suggest Pippa pretend to agree on everything ?,the only way to get to the truth is to openly and honestly debate differences.
- Pippa Georgeson There's a fucking huge difference between pretending to agree and being sectarian arseholes at every possible opportunity. What people seem to forget is that comrades outside of the swp and awl have to sit through meeting after meeting watching both groups argue and tear apart campaigns.
- Steve Hedley Im in neither of those groups and and this is not a campaign its a facebook forum where they have the right to disagree if it offends you go on another thread.
- Pippa Georgeson So you have te right to agree or disagree but if I want to discuss the issue I get told to go on another thread?
You have the right to discuss the tactics/practices employed by the left but I don't?
Don't be such a condescending fuck. - Steve Hedley Stop swearing it makes you look bad you might find that when you leave Uni that in the real world people do disagree ,this is a contentious thread where arguments will happen if you cant handle it you shouldn't take part.
- Pippa Georgeson Steve, I'll swear as much or as little as I please and you may find when you remove your head from your arsehole that it will a long, long time before I take directions from you. But thanks for the suggestion.
I've not said that I can't 'handle' arguments, what I'm presenting is an outside view of what the infighting the status is about looks like and the effects of it.
It's probably not healthy for you to assume that because I'm currently attending uni I have no experience of the real world. Unhealthy, untrue and a bit fucking offensive. - Steve Hedley Some middle class student with a great knowledge of the working class amazing,im glad to see the British education system is producing in you such an extensive selection of swear words,seriously your doing yourself no favors.
- Pippa Georgeson Middle class? Yeah, again your powers of deduction aren't working too well. The ONLY reason I got to uni was the fact that social services pays my fees. I'm a proud working class woman, care leaver and when I finish my degree I will still be both those things.
My god, the irony of sitting in my council flat with 19p on the electricity meter being called midde class by some jumped up brocalist on the internet is fucking hilarious.
You do yourself no favours by being a cunt, Steve, but I'm not telling you to stop, have some curtesy. - Glyn Harries Steve Hedley i did not know you were married to a Kurdish woman, but tbh that is irrelevent to my accusation, that you see as some Zionist ploy!
to repeat; why when the situation in Kurdistan is objectively far worse for Kurds than for Palestinians in Palestine, on almost every indicator, number of villages bulldozed, number of refugees, repression of culture, number of prisoners, number of people killed, US and NATO support etc etc etc, WHY is there NO British Left support for Kurdish issues and there is for Palestine? - Pippa Georgeson Actually there is some british left support for Kurdish. We helped them campaign for education in their own language a few years ago.
- Steve Hedley Yeah heard it all before you'll be a manager in a couple of years sacking workers.why don't you go and rant at someone else your obviously very disturbed pippa.Glyn same advice to you mate your arguments are nonsensical in not responsible for the british left but personally support the Kurds .your parroting the Zionist argument consciously or not that other country's ate worse than Israel so why condemn israeli atrocities .
- Pippa Georgeson I'll be sacking workers? With my english degree from edge hill? Lol. You've clearly got deep seated issues surrounding working class mobility that are more relevant to yourself than me, I suggest you address them in your own time and don't project you silly fuckwit.
- Pippa Georgeson What is my life for if not letting comrades exclude working class people from the class struggle with sectarian bullshit, in silence, whilst making them sanwiches?
- Steve Hedley I would suggest you go and get rid of some of that bile I would suggest you find a partner of some description but then I looked at your profile I can see why you have issues now be nice and go make your little middle class buddie a sandwich before the meter runs out
- Joe Talbot Fox Kelly Firstly I'm more than capable of making my own sandwhiches without subjugating Pippa. Secondly your a fucking cunt.
- Pippa Georgeson Wow, Steve is way progressive, woman doesn't state on facebook they have a partner 'of some kind' therefore they 'have issues' and their experience as working class is negated?
You're a bit of a misogynistic little gobshite aren't you? With "comrades" like these, eh? - Glyn Harries Steve Hedley i am well aware you are not responsible for the British Left. But I am asking you a question and and you are evading that question. So why does the British Left ignore Kurdistan when it is the same distance from the UK as Gaza, when it is objectively worse? When there are 100,000 Kurdish refugees in London, and virtually no Palestinian refugees. Something ain't right.
And why do you think I do not condemn Israeli atrocities? Why a wierd thing to say! Of course I condemn the IDF atrocities. But why do you and the British Left continue to see uniqueness in those atrocities and their perpetrator, the Israeli state?
p.s. I do not support a 2 State solution. That is as flawed imho as the Hamas/PLO/SWP position that puts ALL the blame on the Israeli citizens. The only solution that is not racial/ethnic is a mixed country or confederalism - Steve Hedley I don't know us the answer Glyn perhaps the PAC are more effective campaigners than the pkk ,or alternatively what's your explanation are they all secret antisemitrs?
- Steve Hedley Don't worry Pippa I'm sure there's someone out there for you who likes the bulldog who swamped a wasp look and the personality of a pitbull good luck,oh misogynist couldn't really tell that you were a woman from tour picture
- Pippa Georgeson Wow, bdy eliteism, transphobia, misogyny, antisemitic, class negator your intersection and depth comrade, they know no bounds.
- Glyn Harries I'm suprised you don't know Steve! Married to a Kurdish woman you must have been pretty frustrated that the Left showed so little interest in Kurdish issues? And it's funny no one on the Left knows either about Kurdish struggle in Turkey let alone why they do not support it! It's some kinda wierd myopia. You are right the Kurdish movement in the UK is not brilliant at publicity though but you would have thought after what they have suffered, after seeing so many refugees in London, with so many stories of repression that they might have got involved? Tbh I wouldn't have much to say on the issue if I was not in north London.
So what do i think? On the good side the fact that many people of Jewish background are socialists and they are ashamed/hate what israel are doing and have got stuck in and fair play to em.
On the bad side, a crass interpretation of the already flawed philosophy of Lenins anti-imperialism, disgusting oppoprtunism from the likes of George Galloway making out this is about a war on Islam to wind up Bangaldeshis and Pakistanis in the UK, idiotic accusations that PKK/BDP/KCK is a Mossad front, the typical narrow mindedness of so much of the Brtish Left who won't do anything they are not told to do, and a type of racialism (not anti-semitism) that believes that Jews can not behave like everyone else; Jews appear to be the only people in the world who the Left deny nationalism to ( what would Lenin have said about that?) - Glyn Harries p.s. end of conversation anyway .. can't be trying to debate with you while you are abusing two people above the way you are .. way out of order Steve .. disappointing
- Steve Hedley Good glyn your a Zionist apologist and a pretty bad one at that ,your arguments are not logical and your retirement from the debate is long overdue.
- Pippa Georgeson Always seem to be the victim? I think that's the same line Borris Johnson used about Liverpool after Hillsborough.
Since you're so concerned with policing people's education, class and looks, maybe you'd fit right in with that kind of middle class, male privilege culture. Who knows? Give it a few months and you may find *you're* the one sacking workers, you bellend. - Beccy Emily Rainbow-Badger Pippa, I just want to state in no uncertain terms that I'm really appalled by the things Steve is saying to you, and I hope you don't think others on this thread think it's ok!
- Glyn Harries since when does opposing Zionism (and condemning Israeli agression/militarism/colonialism) BUT opposing all nationalism, make someone a Zionist apologist! lol Steve you've totally lost it on here .. i've had a lot of respect for your trade union work but your attitude on here sucks mate ..
- Steve Hedley Retirement didnt last long Glyn and your apologist statements and diversionary tactics for Zionism suck.
- Steve Hedley So Pippa you come on the thread add nothing to the debate then personaly abuse me swear at me and then try to make yourself out the victim I suppose the Zionists and their apologists will rush to your defense ,try and get some councelling your issues are only too apparent.
- Pippa Georgeson Steve, you really should consider taking your face for a shit. 'Personally abuse and swear at me' swearing at someone isn't being a misogynistic prick. It isn't discriminatory. But if you'd like examples of things misogynist pricks say...^ tadaaar!
- Dan Jeffery Totally out of order comments on here Steve. Whether Pippa has been swearing or not, to starting laying in to what women look like and taking pot shots at mental health issues is bang out of order.
- Steve Hedley As i predicted Dan all the Zionists employing diversion tactics I never mentioned mental health issues now back to learning the AWL/Zionist mantra mate anything but allowing debate on the right of Palestinian refugees to return home aye
- Pippa Georgeson Steve, I genuinely feel that you may have a problem if you can't understand how offensive and condescending you've been.
You can disagree with someone's stance (and I do) and not be a shit about it. - Dan Jeffery I don't think you could have read any of my posts on here given I've said I totally disagree with the AWL, think that Isarael is an apartheid and zionist state and support the right of return and a one state solution. Also our union branch has probably done as much as any other union branch in the country on this. We raised nearly £3000 for Palestine Medical Aid, have twinned with a trade union branch in the West Bank after our International Officer went out there, do a fornightly stall in Brixton to support the Boycott, Disinvestment and Santions campaign and have just passed a resolution saying our branch is in support of a one state solution.
That doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with making insulting comments about what women look like and keep making references to why someone has issues after looking at their facebook profile, and bizarre comments about whether someone has a partner or not. - Steve Hedley Dan read back and see how it started and by the way someone who cant refrain from swearing including calling me a "cunt"may well have issues I suppose you be so tolerant if I referred to people in this way.Is this a case of patronizing reverse sexism on your part?
- Pippa Georgeson It started with you deciding I was somehow too delicate for the post, 'couldn't handle it' and that I'm not allowed to swear.
- Dan Jeffery I don't think it is a good idea to go round swearing your head off and wouldn't have said anything if you'd just been generally aggro back. But personally I think it takes it to another level when blokes start insulting what women look like and make references to mental health issues. If that makes me a reverse sexist then so be it.
- Steve Hedley No I didn't mention delicacy ,you just interpreted it that way,I was merely making the point that if you didnt want to be party to the left debate on Palestine there was no point you staying on the thread I would have said the same to anyone who made the same complaint.Swearing on here is not good form from anyone it has nothing to do with your gender.
- Pippa Georgeson On the 'cunt' issue, should Dan also lecture black people who use the n word? Or Jewish people who call themselves 'yids'?
- Pippa Georgeson It has less to do with Palestine, it was more to do with the incident in the status e.g. Sectarian bullshit that the SWP and AWL engage in constantly that isolates people. Because of this you decide I'm middle class and go creeping around on my profile and my swearing is a huge problem?
- Pippa Georgeson What about lgbt people that call themself queer?
Nah? We'll just go busting in there with the ol' white male privilege and tell them how to reclaim or not reclaim the language of their oppression. - Steve Hedley I didnt go creeping around on your profile I took a guess because of your arrogant attitude and profile picture that you were a middle class student.Working class people dont usually swear on these forums middleclass people pretending to be workers often do.You seem to be digging around desperatley to defend your appalling language and personal abuse ,you didnt call yourself a "cunt "you called me one this use of sexist derogatory language is unacceptable.
- Pippa Georgeson Ha! You said yourself you went looking round on my profile. Whether or not I use the word cunt as a derogatory term is down to me, I have one. And genuinely don't hold sexist value, unfortunately same cannot be said for you. So clearly you being very w...See More
- Steve Hedley Profile picture its on here now ,glad to hear you've found someone to put up with you give them my commiserations .
- Beccy Emily Rainbow-Badger This is the second time I've seen this happen on Facebook lately. An older man gets sworn at when he's being quite patronising and offensive, and seems to think he retains the moral high ground if he starts really offensively, misogynistically and agistly attacking the young woman who has had the gall not to treat him with the respect he 'deserves'. It really is quite worrying.
The point about the swp and awl needing to think through how the kind of exchange Sacha originally quoted is received by students coming out on a demo, maybe for the first time, is a really valid one, and also whether this kind of point-scoring actually helps anyone; it's not a reason to just be told to leave the thread. - Sacha Ismail I've been away most of this week and only just seen this. It's unbelievable and Steve should be ashamed of himself. Will say more tomorrow.
- Max Shanly Even if I disagreed with your views, I would still let you have your voice heard and I would expect the same. It's an inherent part of the political process, without debate and discussion we can never move forward.
I'll admit, I don't always agree with some of the things that the AWL come out with, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual, but I wouldn't hate you because of it, I mean, you're not Tories. - Stef Newton So, what have we learned tonight? 1) Believing that a Jewish state should exist = Zionism 2) The AWL believe no 1. 3) The AWL therefore are Zionists (?) 4) This is another cheap dig at the SWP 5) Steve is a cunt.
- Sacha Ismail It's only a cheap dig if you think that anyone can do anything and it should never be mentioned as it constitutes a dig - which sounds to me very much like political bullies trying to use "Don't be sectarian" to defend themselves. Which I will say more about later. First, though I'd like to deal Steve's outrageous behaviour. Will do so when I'm back online tonight.
- David Toube According to Socialist Unity, the problem with the SWP is that they're 'liberals'.
http://www.socialistunity.com/the-swps-descent-into-liberalism
- Rhiannon Red Pippa Georgeson make me a liberalism sandwich. Dont you know we instantly become middle class the second we are assigned a u.c.a.s. number? silly!
- David Sabbagh This should/could have been an interesting debate on Israel and Palestine. 198 comments later and it has literally descended into something that makes me ashamed to call myself a Marxist! The whole Trotsky line of 'shouting with absolutism' comes to mi...See More
- Pippa Georgeson God, sorry Rhiannon, I forgot. I thought it was the second we got our less-than-job-seekers loan through?
- Matilda Murday Steve Hedley... you waving your gender and age privilege round like a flaccid cock whilst accusing Pippa of class privilege is laughable. What a sad little man you are. The worst aspect, aside from how unpleasant you have been to Pippa, is that it is not now possible to have a conversation about the issue. Thanks 'mate'.
- David Toube This is the Steve Hedley who attacks Jewish guys and mocks them as "the Chosen People" like some medieval Jew baiting priest?
- Steve Hedley Ismail your in a group of racists the awl supported lately by zionists and I'll informed useful fools like Toube.Apologists for imperialism your group are either a state front or doing the states job unconsciously you are anything but left wing.
- Sacha Ismail Steve: "a group of racists"? Racists of what sort? Racist against who?
If you can't see why throwing about personal abuse, moreover abuse saturated with misogyny, is problematic, then you're more of a bully, unreconstructed sexist and cynical Stalinist than I thought. I'd say the same sort of thing about your wild claims about your opponents on the left being racists, state agents etc
I agree that this - meaning since Steve started slinging abuse - is the kind of discussion that puts people off the left. So I'm going to leave it for a while and consider whether to restart the actual political discussion.
I'm happy to consider whether - however bad the SWP's behaviour in shouting "Zionist" at people - that putting up this kind of status is basically not very constructive. I'm sceptical about that, because I think people should be held to account for their behaviour, but I'm willing to consider it. I also want to strongly protest against the idea that "the SWP and the AWL" are symmetically responsible for sectarianism on the student left. I've yet to be provided with a single example - certainly a single serious example - of the AWL behaving in a sectarian way. - Kate Liz Socialist Action/SBL are more guilty of dragging back the student movement to fulfil their Stalinist agenda than anyone else is of sectarianism. SWP students shouldn't have any truck with them but instead choose to form an uncomfortable alliance with them in order to try to dislodge the AWL.
Monday, 15 April 2013
Conversation with Hedley
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