New Year Same Shit- thoughts from the fatosphere

My new years resolution this year was to unfollow people who post about their diets on social media. It is going so well. I feel lighter, happier and less anxious. I don't feel guilty.

Examples
'Look how much weight I've lo-' *UNFOLLOWS*
'Been at the gym since 6am #eatcle-' *UNFOLLOWS*
'Look at this Jamie Oliver article about how poor people are fat and stupi-' *UNFOLLOWS*

Why am I doing this?
-It took me years to unlearn the idea that it's okay to judge other people's bodies. (FYI- you should never criticise people's bodies in the street, especially not around children)
-It took me years to learn that I do not deserve to be judged, ridiculed or bullied for my body. (Because of the normalised aforementioned public shaming I'd witnessed)
-It's an daily fight to treat my fat disabled body with compassion & love rather than hatred and fear.
-Some of us don't have have a middle ground to rest on. Diets lead us to crying over orange segments because we don't know exactly how many calories are in one. They damage our health even whilst making us look thinner.

Unfollowing people who aren't there yet isn't me not liking other people's desire to look or feel a certain way, it's me not being up for reading about how they strain their bodies to get there. Lets be honest, lots of people (even fat people) get feelings of superiority when restricting their food. Judgement becomes second nature and rather than making subjective reasonable decisions about what they feel like eating- they eat a meal that they don't enjoy in order to deprive their body into losing fat. Now sat, unhappy, at a table amongst the people they love, they are preoccupied with their second salad of the day. And of course, when other people begin to tuck into carbohydrates they get annoyed and resentful and judge the choices and bodies of those around them.

I know, I've been there. And I'm not a terrible person so I know it's not just me who falls into that kind of behaviour.

In real life situations this becomes more difficult. The other day I was in a local shop buying food for a night in front of the TV with my partner (don't tell Jamie Oliver guys, we know how much he dislikes working class people having TV's and junk food). The sales assistant separated my items into two piles pushed the first towards me and said
'This is not healthy' then pushed the second towards me and said
'This is healthy'.
I know. Fuck him, right? Anyway so I'm stood there looking at this man and I see my options as
a. Challenge him by trying to convince him I am not an evil fat but a good fat.
b. Challenge him by telling him that he is wrong to lecture fat people he doesn't know about their food.
c. Do nothing.

To my shame, I picked c. He took this as an invitation to explain to me that chocolate is bad for you and whilst I frowned at him, stood in silence and stonewalled him as he patted his flat stomach and said
'Look at me, nice and thin because I don't eat so much chocolate' it struck me.
The reason the social media resolution is so beautiful and simple isn't because I'm in denial. I know who I am, what I look like & what people think. I get told (sometimes literally told) everyday all day in situations where I can't simply walk away or ignore the person telling me.
So accessing a fat shame free social media space is the least I can do to take care of myself.

This isn't selfishness.
It's self preservation.

"I turn a lot of heads, I turn a lot of stomachs" what it's like when you're not the object of desire

A friend on Facebook posted this article by Sarah Einstein and my response to it feels bigger than I could reasonably call 'a status'. In the article Einstein talks about her experience of being an older, less physically attractive wife to a younger, more physically attractive man. The two speak freely about their situation- he is not attracted to her body and she is working through her negative feelings about this. He is however attracted to her mind and she feels good about this. 


Like Sarah Einstein '(...)beautiful has always been beyond me. If people find me so, it’s only after they’ve come to know me. (...) I minded this quite a lot in my teens, when it seemed that only beautiful people mattered, that it was a prerequisite for a good life.' But more than her writing about how she doesn't turn heads or has always been plain, I find I turn plenty of heads. I have always repulsed people (especially men) and can't walk down a street without an extended look. Hardly go a day without comments being made  about me. On my first day of my current job my boss gave me diet advice. I get comments about my unattractiveness online a lot (A LOT). And why is this? Well, it's not because I'm plain, I wish I was plain! Plain would be a godsend.


 By conventional standards I am deeply ugly (in part due to my being a fat person, in part a hairy mixed white/arab woman, I have a heavy brow, a giant chin and a strangely cartoonish look). I also have large disfigurements on my body. I can say these things. I can say them and know that they are true to society's standards but not absolute fact. I spent many years feeling like it wasn't my job to be beautiful, I rebelled against beauty, wore sexy clothes on Wednesday mornings without waxing my eyebrows. I took a few years out to readjust what I expected of my body and myself. 


Somewhere down the line I began to feel my subversion of norms was actually, very attractive. I am not easy on the eyes, my presence requires space and attention & work. It always has, but importantly I stopped trying to make myself smaller & I started occupying space in my own life.



When I was seventeen a (frankly mediocre) man once said to me 'I think about us being together. Usually I go for good looking women but you've got this intellect'. 
but you've got this intellect.
He's married now, to a beautiful woman, a friend actually. And I hope at least for her that he has let go of the abstract standard beauty he had decided it was his job to enforce on women. 

Though this statement stung (stings, even after eight years) I can see where he was coming from.I can see why she is his wife. I can see why I am not. I can see why Sarah Einstein is doing herself a favour by working through her feelings on her desirability.


I'm not Sarah Einstein. I'm a queer, fat, disabled and working class person. I'm also polyamorous. I work really hard to undo the messages society has taught me about myself (in the full knowledge that not everyone I sleep next to has bothered to do the same). I try my best to avoid toxic media messages, I look at myself naked in the mirror even on the days I don't want to. I read books written by other fat people. I shout at men who harass me in the street. I call out abusive behaviours in the queer scene (usually to my own exclusion and suffering). I take myself on decadent dates. I eat in public. I talk about sex. I care more about Janelle Monae than Jeremy Clarkson. I have several sexual and romantic partners. I cut toxic people out my life (where safe and possible to do so). I do most of my online interacting in explicitly queer femme spaces and the people whose opinions I listen to are mainly other fat working class femmes.



But something is rotten in the state of Denmark (my life). On a daily basis I feel my relationships (despite my attempts to work against it) have been/are still highly impacted by the thinking that my body is unsexy, undesirable and that my merit (smash merit tbh) is based purely in how much I can perform the role of funny fatty and clever prole.  I know lots of other people I know feel the same. And I want to tell you- it is not your job to fill in the deficit others consider your body to make with with, intellect or entertainment. Beautiful, thin, young people are allowed to be vapid & so are you.



The other day I was thinking about polyamory and the very real and harmful way in which people stack, hierachalise and demote their romantic/sexual partners. Polyamory is supposed to an alternate method of loving and dating to the typical white heterosexual nuclear family of Western economic creation. It's not a massive surprise that it ends up reinforcing a lot of the really shitty dynamics that already exist. I can't tell you how many times I found myself pushed out of relationships by people who were more conventionally attractive than me. You see in our relationships there's no need to break up, we can just invest more time in the people we think gain us more social capital. And slowly us uglies fade away.



And I'm sorry Sarah, but I'm just not as strong as you, I can't make peace with being the person who is the last resort date (or friend, femmerades, let's not pretend we aren't stuck doing the dishes whilst the cool andro and masculine people gain queer points by misquoting Marx). I can't make peace with my body being a barrier or a hurdle for people to love me. 



Me stating this doesn't mean it isn't something that effects me. If only acknowledging this shit meant it went away. I assure you, I'm well aware that all my relationships are subject to my partners not finding someone more attractive and thinner. And yeah, I spend a lot of my time stuck in scarcity mentality (warning on this link for discussion and take down of dieting).  Reading Einstein's article I felt deeply emotional at the passage 'In our early days, before my husband could articulate the ways in which he both did, and did not, feel desire for me, we sometimes fought about our sex life. I’m tired of always having to be the one who makes the first move, I’d say, and do you think I’m ugly, and of course are you sure you love me? (...) And we’d make love that night because he’d reach for me, and then not again—sometimes for weeks—until I reached for him.' because man, I know those feels. And it's not just about sex because as other people who are reminded daily by the behaviour of partners, friends and family- we all know that it's difficult to feel loved by someone who to all intents and purposes feeds our self-loathing. I feel like we (fat femmes, working class women) wake up every day and exist, fight through family meals and obnoxious men and horrible media messages about ourselves. We are strong. But your oppressive body politics are your issue and something you need to work through to be safe to date us. It's not about education it's about work. Your pseudo sex positive 'preferences' don't exist in an apolitical vacuum. 
 

A while back a friend who was having a difficult time read me this article by Derek Sivers entitled 'No more yes. It's either HELL YEAH! or no' (warning there for overly enthusiastic straight dude). We need to be 100% clear that being fat doesn't make you unsexy and being older doesn't make you undesirable and being attractive in a non-conventional manner isn't an excuse for a lack lustre approach to us or our bodies. Equally, the kyriarchal bullshit that slips out the mouths of your partners and family is no excuse for a half-arsed approach to loving yourself. It will hurt when the person you were filling in time for (shout out at this point to Samantha Peterson for writing this amazing poem) comes along and they are thinner, and funnier(although funnier is unlikely) than you. They are literally you lite. It will hurt and then it won't. It is not evidence. It does not confirm anything other than the person who pushed you aside is a grade A trumpet. You do not have to spend another moment being pushed aside or undesired. I could tell you that I will always find beauty in the piece of you that they recoiled from, and I will, but the most important thing is that we find ourselves worthy. Even when how we feel about ourselves is negated by someone we love. Sarah Einstein's article registered with me in several ways, and I know that what she is saying is important and true and sad and beautiful. But for me, it's not the end of the story. 

If nothing else- it is a lot of work to be the person holding up both (or all) sides of a relationship. Call me an entitled millenial (or whatever bullshit term people are using to describe young women who they disagree with these days) but I'm not willing to hedge my future happiness on an Ann Summer's catalogue & the hope that I find someone who tolerates my powerful, exciting body.


 You cannot validate yourself through other people. And if they leave you in the fruit bowl in hope of finding less bruised fruit, then- fuck them. Or rather, don't. They are not your safety.

Lately I have been writing things down to make sense of them, I have been reading more in order to improve my writing and in my reading I found these words. I repeat them to myself when ever I feel devalued by someone I love, or am invested in

'you can't make homes out of human beings
someone should have already told you that
and if he wants to leave
then let him leave
you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful something not everyone knows how to love.' 
-Warsan Shireh
For women who are difficult to love

On Jump Stories of Life, Love and Fear by Paula Kelly-Ince, justice & quiche.

In university, where Paula & I met (studying creative writing), each semester we had an assignment entitled 'Reading as a Writer'. And sometimes, when I wasn't too busy protesting or talking about representation, I did the assignment. We analysed the work of playwrights, poets, screen writers, novelists and memoirists. We discussed their form their structure, what themes we would apply to our own work and how, if the work was effective and (audible gasp) what we would improve. 

Now, it's one thing telling your classmates their time travelling-rapping-werewolf-romance novel would be a more consistent read if the dialogue was tighter, but comrades, it is an entirely different bag of fish to critique a "real" writer.  A "real" writer with that elusive published masterpiece (following film adaptation, cult classic t shirt references). Yes, obviously I chose George Orwell.

Believe me. I am picky. I may not be Judy Blume myself but I can sniff out holes in stories at the speed a quiche disappears at a family buffet (dead quick). I guess the reason I'm saying this is that when I read Jump I felt that I was reading as a writer, reading the work of an established and effective writer. Paula writes beautiful and delicate stories of people (mainly women, woop woop feminism) at their extremes. These circumstances that life pushes up to live through, documented in such a grounded style. 

And that's the point. Paula's work is effective because it's written about women I could know. Working class situations we recognise, grief, crushes and money problems, community. Struggle, really. How often is it that we see our own experiences played out on the page interspersed with magic realism and hilarious dialogue? Never. 

On reading Mr Phillips I  was transported to my own teenage years. And with Paula's gentle, yet uncompromising humour I began to recognise the hilarity of youth. The story plays out before you and after all you can do is think God, do you remember -. Even now I spend time too wrapped up in social justice causes (arguing with Tories on the internet) to consider the relationship between activism and fiction. But I believe healing is part of justice and Paula's work was, for me, healing. 

Jump is a story that rings with heartbreak and shines light on an area so often wrought with shame and secrecy.  Tara is a story that twinkles with promise and the unsaid. The fact that these three stories can sit side by side in unison is a testament to Paula’s skill, precision and bravery. It is brave to speak out, to construct these voices that whisper truths to us, in a world that seeks to scare us into silence. 

Seeing the stories of working class people, especially women written down, it's transformative. Sometimes, just existing in a world where you are abhorred and tested is radical in itself. Depicting the stories we are too scared or embarrassed to tell is one step further. If doing so with elegance & care is not justice I don't know what is. 

• To buy Jump (for less than £1!) click here Content note for still birth and child death in Jump, slut shaming in Mr Phillips. 
• For weekly updates on Paula's hilarious life and musings on feminism and parening you can follow Paula's blog.
• To keep up to date with Paula's writing you can like her on facebook or follow her on twitter @paulakellyince.

 

How to be an ally to working class people

Unpopular Opinions- What is Jamie Oliver missing in his discussion of obesity and poverty?

A fucking lot! In fact the whole media is moralising about parents and weight whilst...well, not really knowing very much.

So you might have heard Jamie Oliver's comments about mothers letting their children eat cheesey chips (the devil's starchy snack) in front of a 'massive' TV. Queue liberal media producing lots of 'fat is bad but um, like poverty' articles. So, as I sit here, an obese woman, claiming benefits, writing this post from my council flat please try and suspend the absolute disgust you must feel towards me for saying- hey Jamie, shadafackap.

Now here are some points missing within the discussion on poverty an obesity-

1. Jamie Oliver is a wealthy man. Just gunna put this out there. He's not a single mother who works a full time job for 20% less than her male counterpart and then goes home to take care of her child. His children are privately educated and have two parents. He is celebrity and a chef. He can afford child care and healthy food not only that but his career allows him time to plan meals and work out their nutritional value.

2. When people are on a lower income they tend to 'stock up' on food that will last. Fresh fruit and veg isn't available geographically or financally to everyone. Also, a lot of food chefs make is high in fat, but cheesey chips is a notably working class kinda meal isn't it? So the problem isn't gormet burgers drenched in oil and creamy sauce with a side of whatever the fuck you do to your potatoes.

3. Um, it might come as a BIG surprise to you (liberal media) but not all fat people are unhealthy. I mean if we examine the 'Obesity epidemic' in America then we can see that people may be bigger, but not that much bigger. The W.H.O says that overweight people 'may' suffer from health problems caused by weight. Not will. Not do. May. And you being slim doesn't qualify you to tell them how to live.

4. Food isn't the only reason people are fat. We work longer hours than we did fifty years ago, we sleep less. That means more stress (that can mean weight gain). And sleeping less can cause weight gain too. So when people use 'health' as a way to concern troll fat people, it makes me think their concern is more about shaming people otherwise they would talk about the whole picture.

5. Poor people are allowed to have massive TVs. If people on benefits want to spend ALL their money on nachos and DVDs to watch on said massive TV, they can. It's no one's job to tell them otherwise. And before anyone starts on 'but my tax money'. No. Your taxes go on roads too, are you going to shout at people use them? Your taxes go on supporting imperialist interventions and paying MPs to fuck you over, but no, wait, someone ate a plate of fucking cheesey chips. Let's not try and lower the price of healthy food, let's not try and get ready meals that are healthier, nah, let's just cry about some poor, fat people eating cheesey bastard chips.

What the comments and the coverage shows is that people aren't really too arsed about improving life for anyone. They want to moralise about people being fat or poor or eating cheesey chips or having TVs.
Boring classism. Boring body elitism. Boring liberal media and boring Jamie Oliver with his boring, shallow opinions.

Conversation with Hedley

• Pippa Georgeson This thread is why the left fails to engage with a lot of groups properly. So much infighting and prancing about like peacocks, you make people feel detatched from the class struggle.

  24 November 2012 at 11:22 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley So what do you suggest Pippa pretend to agree on everything ?,the only way to get to the truth is to openly and honestly debate differences.

  24 November 2012 at 11:25 · Like · 1
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  Pippa Georgeson There's a fucking huge difference between pretending to agree and being sectarian arseholes at every possible opportunity. What people seem to forget is that comrades outside of the swp and awl have to sit through meeting after meeting watching both groups argue and tear apart campaigns.

  24 November 2012 at 11:28 via mobile · Edited · Like · 2
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  Steve Hedley Im in neither of those groups and and this is not a campaign its a facebook forum where they have the right to disagree if it offends you go on another thread.

  24 November 2012 at 11:32 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson So you have te right to agree or disagree but if I want to discuss the issue I get told to go on another thread?
  You have the right to discuss the tactics/practices employed by the left but I don't?
  Don't be such a condescending fuck.

  24 November 2012 at 11:34 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley Stop swearing it makes you look bad you might find that when you leave Uni that in the real world people do disagree ,this is a contentious thread where arguments will happen if you cant handle it you shouldn't take part.

  24 November 2012 at 11:39 · Like · 1
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  Pippa Georgeson Steve, I'll swear as much or as little as I please and you may find when you remove your head from your arsehole that it will a long, long time before I take directions from you. But thanks for the suggestion.
  I've not said that I can't 'handle' arguments, what I'm presenting is an outside view of what the infighting the status is about looks like and the effects of it.
  It's probably not healthy for you to assume that because I'm currently attending uni I have no experience of the real world. Unhealthy, untrue and a bit fucking offensive.

  24 November 2012 at 11:47 via mobile · Like · 3
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  Joe Talbot Fox Kelly Pippa be quiet your womanly temper will only exhaust your utereus!!

  24 November 2012 at 11:48 · Unlike · 2
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  Pippa Georgeson It has clearly gone awandering anyway, because I fainted when I saw this thread.

  24 November 2012 at 11:50 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Some middle class student with a great knowledge of the working class amazing,im glad to see the British education system is producing in you such an extensive selection of swear words,seriously your doing yourself no favors.

  24 November 2012 at 11:51 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Middle class? Yeah, again your powers of deduction aren't working too well. The ONLY reason I got to uni was the fact that social services pays my fees. I'm a proud working class woman, care leaver and when I finish my degree I will still be both those things. 
  My god, the irony of sitting in my council flat with 19p on the electricity meter being called midde class by some jumped up brocalist on the internet is fucking hilarious.
  You do yourself no favours by being a cunt, Steve, but I'm not telling you to stop, have some curtesy.

  24 November 2012 at 11:57 via mobile · Edited · Like · 4
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  Glyn Harries Steve Hedley i did not know you were married to a Kurdish woman, but tbh that is irrelevent to my accusation, that you see as some Zionist ploy! 
  to repeat; why when the situation in Kurdistan is objectively far worse for Kurds than for Palestinians in Palestine, on almost every indicator, number of villages bulldozed, number of refugees, repression of culture, number of prisoners, number of people killed, US and NATO support etc etc etc, WHY is there NO British Left support for Kurdish issues and there is for Palestine?

  24 November 2012 at 12:14 · Edited · Like · 1
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  Pippa Georgeson Actually there is some british left support for Kurdish. We helped them campaign for education in their own language a few years ago.

  24 November 2012 at 12:17 via mobile · Like · 2
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  Pippa Georgeson Not great, I know, but still created some grassroots networks.

  24 November 2012 at 12:18 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Yeah heard it all before you'll be a manager in a couple of years sacking workers.why don't you go and rant at someone else your obviously very disturbed pippa.Glyn same advice to you mate your arguments are nonsensical in not responsible for the british left but personally support the Kurds .your parroting the Zionist argument consciously or not that other country's ate worse than Israel so why condemn israeli atrocities .

  24 November 2012 at 16:53 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson I'll be sacking workers? With my english degree from edge hill? Lol. You've clearly got deep seated issues surrounding working class mobility that are more relevant to yourself than me, I suggest you address them in your own time and don't project you silly fuckwit.

  24 November 2012 at 17:01 via mobile · Like · 6
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  Joe Talbot Fox Kelly GOD PIPPA STOP FIRING PEOPLE AND MAKE US A SANDWHICH

  24 November 2012 at 17:04 · Unlike · 7
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  Pippa Georgeson What is my life for if not letting comrades exclude working class people from the class struggle with sectarian bullshit, in silence, whilst making them sanwiches?

  24 November 2012 at 17:08 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley I would suggest you go and get rid of some of that bile I would suggest you find a partner of some description but then I looked at your profile I can see why you have issues now be nice and go make your little middle class buddie a sandwich before the meter runs out

  24 November 2012 at 17:26 · Like
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  Joe Talbot Fox Kelly Firstly I'm more than capable of making my own sandwhiches without subjugating Pippa. Secondly your a fucking cunt.

  24 November 2012 at 17:29 · Edited · Unlike · 2
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  Pippa Georgeson Wow, Steve is way progressive, woman doesn't state on facebook they have a partner 'of some kind' therefore they 'have issues' and their experience as working class is negated?
  You're a bit of a misogynistic little gobshite aren't you? With "comrades" like these, eh?

  24 November 2012 at 17:29 via mobile · Like · 3
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  Joe Talbot Fox Kelly People like him make me feel ashamed to be a lefty/irish

  24 November 2012 at 17:32 · Unlike · 1
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  Glyn Harries Steve Hedley i am well aware you are not responsible for the British Left. But I am asking you a question and and you are evading that question. So why does the British Left ignore Kurdistan when it is the same distance from the UK as Gaza, when it is objectively worse? When there are 100,000 Kurdish refugees in London, and virtually no Palestinian refugees. Something ain't right. 
  And why do you think I do not condemn Israeli atrocities? Why a wierd thing to say! Of course I condemn the IDF atrocities. But why do you and the British Left continue to see uniqueness in those atrocities and their perpetrator, the Israeli state? 
  p.s. I do not support a 2 State solution. That is as flawed imho as the Hamas/PLO/SWP position that puts ALL the blame on the Israeli citizens. The only solution that is not racial/ethnic is a mixed country or confederalism

  24 November 2012 at 18:12 · Edited · Like
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  Steve Hedley I don't know us the answer Glyn perhaps the PAC are more effective campaigners than the pkk ,or alternatively what's your explanation are they all secret antisemitrs?

  24 November 2012 at 19:45 · Like
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  Steve Hedley Don't worry Pippa I'm sure there's someone out there for you who likes the bulldog who swamped a wasp look and the personality of a pitbull good luck,oh misogynist couldn't really tell that you were a woman from tour picture

  24 November 2012 at 19:49 · Like
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  Joe Talbot Fox Kelly Oh what even? Jump off a bridge you nasty gobshite

  24 November 2012 at 19:50 · Unlike · 2
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  Pippa Georgeson Wow, bdy eliteism, transphobia, misogyny, antisemitic, class negator your intersection and depth comrade, they know no bounds.

  24 November 2012 at 19:51 via mobile · Like · 7
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  Glyn Harries I'm suprised you don't know Steve! Married to a Kurdish woman you must have been pretty frustrated that the Left showed so little interest in Kurdish issues? And it's funny no one on the Left knows either about Kurdish struggle in Turkey let alone why they do not support it! It's some kinda wierd myopia. You are right the Kurdish movement in the UK is not brilliant at publicity though but you would have thought after what they have suffered, after seeing so many refugees in London, with so many stories of repression that they might have got involved? Tbh I wouldn't have much to say on the issue if I was not in north London. 
  So what do i think? On the good side the fact that many people of Jewish background are socialists and they are ashamed/hate what israel are doing and have got stuck in and fair play to em. 
  On the bad side, a crass interpretation of the already flawed philosophy of Lenins anti-imperialism, disgusting oppoprtunism from the likes of George Galloway making out this is about a war on Islam to wind up Bangaldeshis and Pakistanis in the UK, idiotic accusations that PKK/BDP/KCK is a Mossad front, the typical narrow mindedness of so much of the Brtish Left who won't do anything they are not told to do, and a type of racialism (not anti-semitism) that believes that Jews can not behave like everyone else; Jews appear to be the only people in the world who the Left deny nationalism to ( what would Lenin have said about that?)

  24 November 2012 at 20:00 · Like · 1
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  Glyn Harries p.s. end of conversation anyway .. can't be trying to debate with you while you are abusing two people above the way you are .. way out of order Steve .. disappointing

  24 November 2012 at 20:17 · Edited · Unlike · 2
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  Steve Hedley Good glyn your a Zionist apologist and a pretty bad one at that ,your arguments are not logical and your retirement from the debate is long overdue.

  24 November 2012 at 20:37 · Like
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  Steve Hedley Always seeking to be the victim Pippa ah well at least you've stopped swearing .

  24 November 2012 at 20:39 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Always seem to be the victim? I think that's the same line Borris Johnson used about Liverpool after Hillsborough. 
  Since you're so concerned with policing people's education, class and looks, maybe you'd fit right in with that kind of middle class, male privilege culture. Who knows? Give it a few months and you may find *you're* the one sacking workers, you bellend.

  24 November 2012 at 20:44 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Beccy Emily Rainbow-Badger Pippa, I just want to state in no uncertain terms that I'm really appalled by the things Steve is saying to you, and I hope you don't think others on this thread think it's ok!

  24 November 2012 at 20:51 via mobile · Like · 5
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  Pippa Georgeson Cheers!

  24 November 2012 at 20:54 via mobile · Like
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  Glyn Harries since when does opposing Zionism (and condemning Israeli agression/militarism/colonialism) BUT opposing all nationalism, make someone a Zionist apologist!  lol Steve you've totally lost it on here .. i've had a lot of respect for your trade union work but your attitude on here sucks mate ..

  24 November 2012 at 21:06 · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Retirement didnt last long Glyn and your apologist statements and diversionary tactics for Zionism suck.

  24 November 2012 at 23:14 · Like
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  Steve Hedley So Pippa you come on the thread add nothing to the debate then personaly abuse me swear at me and then try to make yourself out the victim I suppose the Zionists and their apologists will rush to your defense ,try and get some councelling your issues are only too apparent.

  24 November 2012 at 23:21 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Steve, you really should consider taking your face for a shit. 'Personally abuse and swear at me' swearing at someone isn't being a misogynistic prick. It isn't discriminatory. But if you'd like examples of things misogynist pricks say...^ tadaaar!

  24 November 2012 at 23:25 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Bye bye now and have a nice weekend

  24 November 2012 at 23:48 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Enjoy Borris.

  24 November 2012 at 23:51 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley ok Maggie

  24 November 2012 at 23:51 · Like
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  Dan Jeffery Totally out of order comments on here Steve. Whether Pippa has been swearing or not, to starting laying in to what women look like and taking pot shots at mental health issues is bang out of order.

  24 November 2012 at 23:53 · Like · 3
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  Steve Hedley As i predicted Dan all the Zionists employing diversion tactics I never mentioned mental health issues now back to learning the AWL/Zionist mantra mate anything but allowing debate on the right of Palestinian refugees to return home aye

  24 November 2012 at 23:58 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Steve, I genuinely feel that you may have a problem if you can't understand how offensive and condescending you've been.
  You can disagree with someone's stance (and I do) and not be a shit about it.

  25 November 2012 at 00:02 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Have you got tourettes?

  25 November 2012 at 00:03 · Like
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  Dan Jeffery I don't think you could have read any of my posts on here given I've said I totally disagree with the AWL, think that Isarael is an apartheid and zionist state and support the right of return and a one state solution. Also our union branch has probably done as much as any other union branch in the country on this. We raised nearly £3000 for Palestine Medical Aid, have twinned with a trade union branch in the West Bank after our International Officer went out there, do a fornightly stall in Brixton to support the Boycott, Disinvestment and Santions campaign and have just passed a resolution saying our branch is in support of a one state solution.
  
  That doesn't mean I'm gonna agree with making insulting comments about what women look like and keep making references to why someone has issues after looking at their facebook profile, and bizarre comments about whether someone has a partner or not.

  25 November 2012 at 00:05 · Like · 3
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  Steve Hedley Dan read back and see how it started and by the way someone who cant refrain from swearing including calling me a "cunt"may well have issues I suppose you be so tolerant if I referred to people in this way.Is this a case of patronizing reverse sexism on your part?

  25 November 2012 at 00:11 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson It started with you deciding I was somehow too delicate for the post, 'couldn't handle it' and that I'm not allowed to swear. 

  25 November 2012 at 00:15 via mobile · Like
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  Dan Jeffery I don't think it is a good idea to go round swearing your head off and wouldn't have said anything if you'd just been generally aggro back. But personally I think it takes it to another level when blokes start insulting what women look like and make references to mental health issues. If that makes me a reverse sexist then so be it.

  25 November 2012 at 00:17 · Like · 2
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  Steve Hedley No I didn't mention delicacy ,you just interpreted it that way,I was merely making the point that if you didnt want to be party to the left debate on Palestine there was no point you staying on the thread I would have said the same to anyone who made the same complaint.Swearing on here is not good form from anyone it has nothing to do with your gender.

  25 November 2012 at 00:19 · Like
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  Steve Hedley Your entitled to your opinion Dan I dont agree but wont start abusing you by swearing.

  25 November 2012 at 00:20 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson On the 'cunt' issue, should Dan also lecture black people who use the n word? Or Jewish people who call themselves 'yids'?

  25 November 2012 at 00:20 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley I hope he would its offensive and racist

  25 November 2012 at 00:21 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson It has less to do with Palestine, it was more to do with the incident in the status e.g. Sectarian bullshit that the SWP and AWL engage in constantly that isolates people. Because of this you decide I'm middle class and go creeping around on my profile and my swearing is a huge problem?

  25 November 2012 at 00:24 via mobile · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson What about lgbt people that call themself queer? 
  Nah? We'll just go busting in there with the ol' white male privilege and tell them how to reclaim or not reclaim the language of their oppression.

  25 November 2012 at 00:25 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley I didnt go creeping around on your profile I took a guess because of your arrogant attitude and profile picture that you were a middle class student.Working class people dont usually swear on these forums middleclass people pretending to be workers often do.You seem to be digging around desperatley to defend your appalling language and personal abuse ,you didnt call yourself a "cunt "you called me one this use of sexist derogatory language is unacceptable.

  25 November 2012 at 00:30 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Ha! You said yourself you went looking round on my profile. Whether or not I use the word cunt as a derogatory term is down to me, I have one. And genuinely don't hold sexist value, unfortunately same cannot be said for you. So clearly you being very w...See More

  25 November 2012 at 00:33 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Profile picture its on here now ,glad to hear you've found someone to put up with you give them my commiserations .

  25 November 2012 at 00:35 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson What the actual fuck are you talking about?

  25 November 2012 at 00:37 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley Goodnight Tourettes its been a pleasure

  25 November 2012 at 00:41 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson The pleasure has clearly been all yours...

  25 November 2012 at 00:42 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley Oh go on then have the last word if you must

  25 November 2012 at 00:44 · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson Thanks. Coz we're dead mature.

  25 November 2012 at 00:46 via mobile · Like
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  Steve Hedley indeed

  25 November 2012 at 00:46 · Like
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  Beccy Emily Rainbow-Badger This is the second time I've seen this happen on Facebook lately. An older man gets sworn at when he's being quite patronising and offensive, and seems to think he retains the moral high ground if he starts really offensively, misogynistically and agistly attacking the young woman who has had the gall not to treat him with the respect he 'deserves'. It really is quite worrying.
  
  The point about the swp and awl needing to think through how the kind of exchange Sacha originally quoted is received by students coming out on a demo, maybe for the first time, is a really valid one, and also whether this kind of point-scoring actually helps anyone; it's not a reason to just be told to leave the thread.

  25 November 2012 at 10:31 via mobile · Unlike · 7
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  Sacha Ismail I've been away most of this week and only just seen this. It's unbelievable and Steve should be ashamed of himself. Will say more tomorrow.

  1 December 2012 at 01:29 · Like
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  Max Shanly Even if I disagreed with your views, I would still let you have your voice heard and I would expect the same. It's an inherent part of the political process, without debate and discussion we can never move forward.
  
  I'll admit, I don't always agree with some of the things that the AWL come out with, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual, but I wouldn't hate you because of it, I mean, you're not Tories.

  1 December 2012 at 01:33 · Like
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  Stef Newton So, what have we learned tonight? 1) Believing that a Jewish state should exist = Zionism 2) The AWL believe no 1. 3) The AWL therefore are Zionists (?) 4) This is another cheap dig at the SWP 5) Steve is a cunt.

  1 December 2012 at 01:54 · Unlike · 1
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  Sacha Ismail It's only a cheap dig if you think that anyone can do anything and it should never be mentioned as it constitutes a dig - which sounds to me very much like political bullies trying to use "Don't be sectarian" to defend themselves. Which I will say more about later. First, though I'd like to deal Steve's outrageous behaviour. Will do so when I'm back online tonight.

  1 December 2012 at 10:11 · Edited · Like · 1
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  David Toube According to Socialist Unity, the problem with the SWP is that they're 'liberals'. 
  
  http://www.socialistunity.com/the-swps-descent-into-liberalism
  

  
  

  THE SWP'S DESCENT INTO LIBERALISM | Socialist Unity

  www.socialistunity.com
  

  First off, it’s important to put things in their proper perspective. The SWP is ...See more

  1 December 2012 at 10:27 · Like
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  Rhiannon Red Pippa Georgeson make me a liberalism sandwich. Dont you know we instantly become middle class the second we are assigned a u.c.a.s. number? silly!

  1 December 2012 at 10:50 · Unlike · 1
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  Rhiannon Red and you know who is to blame right?

  1 December 2012 at 10:50 · Unlike · 1
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  David Sabbagh This should/could have been an interesting debate on Israel and Palestine. 198 comments later and it has literally descended into something that makes me ashamed to call myself a Marxist! The whole Trotsky line of 'shouting with absolutism' comes to mi...See More

  1 December 2012 at 11:59 via mobile · Like
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  David Toube Are you related to Karl Sabbagh, the supporter of Gilad Atzmon?

  1 December 2012 at 12:08 via  · Like
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  Pippa Georgeson God, sorry Rhiannon, I forgot. I thought it was the second we got our less-than-job-seekers loan through?

  1 December 2012 at 12:21 via mobile · Like
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  Rhiannon Red nah thats just reaffirmation

  1 December 2012 at 12:32 · Unlike · 1
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  Matilda Murday Steve Hedley... you waving your gender and age privilege round like a flaccid cock whilst accusing Pippa of class privilege is laughable. What a sad little man you are. The worst aspect, aside from how unpleasant you have been to Pippa, is that it is not now possible to have a conversation about the issue. Thanks 'mate'.

  1 December 2012 at 15:04 · Unlike · 1
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  David Toube This is the Steve Hedley who attacks Jewish guys and mocks them as "the Chosen People" like some medieval Jew baiting priest?

  1 December 2012 at 15:11 via mobile · Like · 1
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  Steve Hedley Ismail your in a group of racists the awl supported lately by zionists and I'll informed useful fools like Toube.Apologists for imperialism your group are either a state front or doing the states job unconsciously you are anything but left wing.

  1 December 2012 at 18:56 via mobile · Like
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  David Toube Racist filth. It won't be forgotten.

  1 December 2012 at 19:06 via  · Like · 1
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  David Toube The only sort of socialist you are is a national socialist, Hedley

  1 December 2012 at 19:07 via  · Like · 2
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  David Sabbagh David, no I am not. Well not that I know of anyway.

  1 December 2012 at 20:19 via mobile · Like
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  David Toube Thanks. Stupid question for me to have asked

  1 December 2012 at 20:57 via  · Like
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  Sacha Ismail Steve: "a group of racists"? Racists of what sort? Racist against who?
  
  If you can't see why throwing about personal abuse, moreover abuse saturated with misogyny, is problematic, then you're more of a bully, unreconstructed sexist and cynical Stalinist than I thought. I'd say the same sort of thing about your wild claims about your opponents on the left being racists, state agents etc
  
  I agree that this - meaning since Steve started slinging abuse - is the kind of discussion that puts people off the left. So I'm going to leave it for a while and consider whether to restart the actual political discussion.
  
  I'm happy to consider whether - however bad the SWP's behaviour in shouting "Zionist" at people - that putting up this kind of status is basically not very constructive. I'm sceptical about that, because I think people should be held to account for their behaviour, but I'm willing to consider it. I also want to strongly protest against the idea that "the SWP and the AWL" are symmetically responsible for sectarianism on the student left. I've yet to be provided with a single example - certainly a single serious example - of the AWL behaving in a sectarian way.

  2 December 2012 at 15:06 · Like · 2
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  Kate Liz Socialist Action/SBL are more guilty of dragging back the student movement to fulfil their Stalinist agenda than anyone else is of sectarianism. SWP students shouldn't have any truck with them but instead choose to form an uncomfortable alliance with them in order to try to dislodge the AWL.